"it seems serious disease like multiple sclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis etc respond wonderfully to a vegan diet according to scientific trials. "
There are many good reasons to eat a vegan diet, but this isn't one of them. Good longterm trials so no benefit toa vegan diet compared to a varied not vegan diet with good protein, carbohydrate, and plenty of fruit-and-veg diet which gets almost all of the daily calories from good food, vegan, vegetarian or omnivorous.
The diseases quoted in articles advocating restricted diets - such as vegan - are invariably relapsing and remitting conditions like MS and rheumatoid arthritis and the other inflammatory arthritis variants. In other words, they improve themselves as part of the natural history of the disease - and usually, but not always, relapse again later.
So a vegan diet is better than a crap diet, but so is a normal good diet.
elliehen,
Feb 28, 3:28am
Yes, annie.nz, and yes fruitluva2. Why can't we all accept one another's right to choose any one of a dozen diets or permutations of diet? Vegan, Vegetarian - Lacto-Ovo, Pescatarian etc, High Carb, Low Carb, No Carb, Low Starch, High Starch, Low-fat, High-fat, Low GI, High GI ? ? ... Coke and Chips?
It's the hammering away at the individual that is so presumptuous and intrusive. It's the foot-in-the-door evangelists. Who invited them in?
When someone asks to be 'saved', offer them your personal take on salvation, if that's what you enjoy doing.
It's not the content of the various dietary regimes that offends - it's the reforming zeal of a few who would impose their beliefs on others.
jacko205,
Feb 28, 3:40am
LOL Sheeshbit OTT! ! Are you feeling okay Mrs Hen 0r have door-knockers upset you today? Take a chill pill lady.
jmonster,
Feb 28, 3:55am
To be fair I think a lot of the responses on this thread are OTT- poster one just posted a link to a vegan website, so that anyone who is interested can have a look- what is the big deal people?
elliehen,
Feb 28, 3:56am
darlingmole, judging by your fair-to-all-sides and balanced posts, you're a very bright gal, but this sounds suspiciously like one of those 'patsy' questions asked in Parliament in Question Time, with the minister lined up ready to read out her answer;)
frances1266,
Feb 28, 4:18am
Annie you are wrong. Prof George Jelinek cured himself of multiple schlerosis after being diagnosed 11 years ago - he advocates a vegan diet. The Norwegians have carried out studies on a vegan diet on rheumatoid arthritis with a favourable outcome. Dr Dean Ornish carried out a research trial on curing heart disease with a vegan diet, again with a very positive outcome. There are many research studies that show that a vegan diet is advantageous and many studies that show a high fat low carb diet is dangerous but a few on this site chose to promote it and invade every thread that mentions vegan or vegetarian with their false dogma. I think we should all reciprocate and invade their low carb thread with the huge amount of evidence that shows it is dangerous but then I think it is really not my business but I may change my mind as I am fed up with these control freaks taking over every vegetarian thread. If you want to abuse animals then live with your conscience but dont try and shove your views down other people's throats - mind your own business.
kirinesha,
Feb 28, 4:38am
Francis, please take up your battle with the individuals concerned not with the long and well established low carb support thread. The views of the individuals represent just that - their own views and opinions based on their own knowledge and research. They do not represent the views or opinions of everyone on the low carb thread.
To me eating meat or not is not only a health position but a personal ethical and emotional one. I have great sympathy with it on these grounds although it's not the choice for me.
This sort of issue will always bring passions to the fore, and healthy discussion is always to be welcomed but not at the expense of destroying the long time support offered to many to "punish" a few who you personally find dogmatic.
hezwez,
Feb 28, 6:18am
LOL, so post #6577 is the REAL bye bye David? Or was the previous bye bye just the Claytons bye bye, you know, the bye bye that really isn't... . http://www.trademe.co.nz/Community/MessageBoard/Messages. asp x? id=75
jonev2,
Feb 28, 6:51am
I agree with Francis! I NEVER post on the messageboard, but this is driving me crazy! As a fit, happy and healthy vegetarian, I'm sick and tired of being constantly preached at every time i read a vege thread!
elliehen,
Feb 28, 6:56am
kirinesha, this is genuinely refreshing - firstly, because of your frequent use of 'I' and 'me' rather than 'we' and 'us'.
And secondly, because you recognise that healthy discussion is quite different from the un-healthy invasion of a support thread.
I am sure the poster who started this thread on 'Vegan kickstart' was hoping to draw in interested newcomers, just as the Low Carb thread does.
Good on you!
ac_nz,
Feb 28, 7:07am
I think it triggers a kind of guilt in people. They like animals, but they know they are paying bad people to hurt them. Suddenly shopping and cooking are realised as revolutionary actions. Its the ones who know this and dont act that tend to flail out verbally without thinking about the issue in depth. I was a little like that but then I changed my patterns and voila Im not rewarding bad people for doing bad things on my behalf anymore.
Think about what you are advocating here. Non violence, or sufferring of defenceless, helpless animals. Its quite a profound topic, and a very meaningful one. I encourage people unsure to at least consider exploring a recipe or two.
On the health front the 21 day program is administered by a doctor and the support forums there are very informative. I am convinced after researching this myself, that we can live well on a nutritional plant based diet. We can live on one that is heavy in meat too, but its often very cruel to animals. Thats the difference.
You can offer people a path, its accepting that the may not take it thats the trick. I was dismissive at one stage too but I'm not going to trail along behind the rest of society when I am able to think for myself, and see the cruelty, the health issues around meat, the damage its farming does to the environment, and the lies we are told about it, for myself.
I do it to save lives, and financially reward those who offer alternatives. We do what we can, you know. Life is good.
darlingmole,
Feb 28, 7:15am
ummm, not been feeling that flash today so hope I've read you right but umm no ellie ~ I asked the question because I really honestly don't have time (not even the 50 mins to watch the required link! ) hence my question so sadly I'm still a wee bit in the dark
I've spoken with people who've eaten grain fed beast and they tell me it's watery and not nice. Other than that? I have no comment
kirinesha,
Feb 28, 7:21am
Rest assured I didn't make that post to please you Elliehen.
elliehen,
Feb 28, 7:36am
I'm resting assured and I'm OK. Why on earth would you think I would think that? You will still be OK if I agree with you now and then ;)
guess_who,
Mar 1, 4:45am
Okay who-ever you are that is doing this mirror site with these threads that you have removed, to which you have no right; be warned you are in for a skate with numerous upset posters seeing their names on this site.
And we will see justice done with your thievery.
fruitluva2,
Mar 1, 5:42am
Very true, it should be okay for others to start threads not to be policed how this has turned out. OTT attitudes of some me thinks. Several months ago National geographic did a study on several groups of people who clung to vegetarian/vegan diets. Those who abstained from flesh foods on average lived longer and their later years were less affected by ill health. Also, incidence of various cancers and other serious diseases were proportionately less among these groups. One such group were Seventh Day Adventist in California, who were found to be even more healthy than the other groups because they also abstained from smoking , alcohol, and caffiene drinks. Around the same time I watched a doco on TV about an isolated community in China who survived solely on a plant based diet and no processed food whatever. ( An important point). Men and women over 100 years old still worked 10 hours a day, were fit, healthy, totally cognitive, were able to perform complex tasks with dexterity and what's more, they were incredibly cheerful.
One more point, many athletes today are discovering that plant based diets increase performance above meat based diets, and are making changes accordingly.
fruitluva2,
Mar 1, 5:49am
It is tiresome, and while I'm still a meat eater to a point I have Never nor dreamed of breathing down my grown Children's throat when they chose the vegan/ vegetarian diet, why should anyone else? ? !
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