Sour dough bread

Thank you soooo much for this recipe beaker59. I use it all the time now since seeing it on this thread quite awhile ago and it is just so easy after doing it the laborious way for many years. It also comes out a bigger loaf as it rises better than when I used to knead the bread. Thanks again.

Just an ideal thought - but I will try this recipe in my Bread Maker when
I get back to NZ. Seems to me I could make it and leave it in the bowl overnight then transfer to the bread maker in the morning for it to knead and cook it in the "normal" way . . . .

Just an ideal thought - but I will try this recipe in my Bread Maker when
I get back to NZ. Seems to me I could make it and leave it in the bowl overnight then transfer to the bread maker in the morning for it to knead and cook it in the "normal" way . . . . Edited to add: maybe 1/2 the salt (a yeast retarder) and double the sugar (a yeast feeder) !

OK my first lesson learnt seems to be not to use the wholemeal flour in the pre-made "starter" as this seems to be making the baked bread taste very bitter - do you also find this to be so !

Maybe your wholemeal flour is rancid.

Nope - checked by making the same bread (75gm wholemeal/300 gm white flour) with "normal" yeast. The other was bitter not sour and checking several sources confirm that wholemeal can develop rancid off flavours on an overnight or longer fermentation. However my goal was/is Traditional Balm Bread not Sourdough so will just leave out the Wholemeal in the "starter".Thanks for comments.

Interesting. Since I started making sourdough breads I have ALWAYS used wholemeal flour as part of the flour mix. I have also used it in my starter AND sponge/culture proof and never, ever had a problem.

Before white flour and commercial yeast became cheap and plentiful, ALL risen breads were made with a wholemeal and a wild yeast and lactobacilli starter. If wholemeal went rancid during the proofing stages, the art of bread making would have died out many thousands of years ago.

Maybe your starter or dough doesn't have enough lactobacilli, which provides an antibiotic that protects fermenting dough from toxic organisims.

"buzzy110" but I'm not making soughdough bread as I said my goal is making Barm Bread which is not a lacto fermentration instead it uses the barm (yeast foam) from beer making. The bitter taste from the wholemeal is overpowered by the lacto in the sour dough starter.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/food/2011/07/the-ale-barm-method-worthy-of.shtml

Very good. Why are you in a sourdough thread when you are talking about barm-bread! You intimated that you were making beaker's recipe so it is natural to presume that when you made your little complaint without first informing anyone that you were making a totally different bread, that you were talking about failure on that recipe.

I have been busily googling and it seems even this bread and the 'culture' was originally made using whole wheat or rye flours.

Therefore, at a guess, I'd hazard that davidt4 was absolutely correct in her suggestion that your wholemeal was rancid. Wholemeal flour does not last long because the bran and germ begin to go rancid fairly soon after milling. To make a nice wholemeal barm bread perhaps you might like to think about purchasing vacuum packed flour and storing it in the deepfreeze. Ceres Organics sells vacuum packed flour and it can be found in Pak-n-Saves and New Worlds. I don't know about Countdown but probably there as well.

Tunnel vision seems to be a problem for you. Please do not impune me - thank you.

Eh!Do you mean impugn!

Seriously, why not start a thread on Barm bread. It will be informative and helpful and any failures and successes you have with grains or culture, can be reported. The good people on these boards could do with some new ideas and this sound perfect.

As to me impune(sic)ing you I am not sure why you are getting upset. Your posts immediately prior to the one about wholemeal did say you were going to butcher the recipe that beaker gave and make it in your breadmaker. Both suggestions went unremarked by me even though I had a bit to say on both of them. Then you make a complaint about wholemeal flour. Naturally, I am not a mind reader so I commented based on what went before.

I then offered you a suggestion to help with storage of your wholemeal flour and why so as to avoid rancidity. No "impunes" intended. I was merely trying to be helpful.

That is why I think that a new thread on barm bread would be good. I'll read it and follow all the links but will try not to comment. On another note, I actually have a recipe for making levain and might just be tempted to try it if your thread is helpful.

I will just buzz off - you are not important enough to argue with and reasoning is obviously foreign to you.

Your best recipes please.

Oh bother. Theres another thread and I cant get rid of this one. My bad.

Don't be concerned Catlover but because I hate to see threads fade unnecesarily this is my favourite recipe its very basic and the one I started with but it just works so well I still use it years later.

Baking with sourdough is easy it just takes longer to prove(raise) the dough.This is the simple recipe I use and like, you can change the flours depending on what you like. Take the cup of starter from your jar then feed it back to the original level.

1 cup starter
1 cup warm water
1 and a half cups white flour
1 and a half cups wholemeal flour
2 teaspoons of salt
and a couple of tablespoons of good oil (olive is nice)
½ tsp of sugar

Put the ingredients in a bowl stir in into a batter thats a bit sticky but firm then leave on the bench covered for 8 -12 hours or so I have left it for up to 18hrs, then tip out onto a floured board knead for about 2 minutes and place in a loaf tin and allow that to rise until loaf sized. Then bake I put mine in a cold oven and turn on fan bake for 45 min at 190 degrees.Then when baked turn out onto a rack to cool. Some say its best left to rest for a day before eating but I like it fresh and aged so just start straight away. This makes a good general purpose healthy loaf nice toasted with honey or for lunch sandwiches. Longlasting too never had a loaf go stale.

I also use this recipe with 1 cup each of white flour, wholemeal flour, rye flour. For more recipes

The sponge method is a bit different though mine I do feed my starter extra well the day before so its nearly a sponge :)

Beaker's method is certainly intriguing and one that I am keen to try. I have always done mine the labourious way, not that I'm complaining, because I do love the whole process.

Here is my recipe for a standard loaf using the sponge method:

I make each fresh starter thus:
Boil up fresh, filtered, cold water about an hour before you want to make the bread. Make sure you have at least 2 cups of boiled and cooled water. Set it aside, somewhere safe, in case you want to use the jug before you make your bread.
FRESH STARTER
1 cup of flour
1 cup of the boiled water - ensure it is no hotter than 28dC
The container your old starter was in.

Method
After I have poured the starter into the bowl I am going to make the sponge in I tip the water into the old jug and use a clean spatula to swirl it around, getting as much of the left behind starter into the water.
Add that water to the flour and mix. I use a small whisk. The mixture does not have to be smooth. Lumps are fine.
Transfer to a clean jug or jar, put the lid on (I have a jug that covers the starter but lets in air) and put away in the fridge.
Take it out at least 4 hours before you want to use it to make the sponge to bring it back to room temperature and get the dormant yeasts multiplying again.

Notes on the flour used in the starter.
1. If I am not going to make bread for a while I just use cheap high grade flour from the supermarket. I make a fresh batch every 2-3 weeks and when I know I'll be making bread, I use the organic flours that will go into my loaf.
2. If I am making a loaf with say 1 cup each of white, rye and wholemeal I make my fresh starter using 1/3cup of each of those flours. This helps the growth of organisims that specifically feed on those types of flours.
3. Or sometimes I just use ½cup each of white and rye and use this in the next loaf despite using different flours to make my bread.

BASIC LOAF: - Using the sponge method (this is what I do)
SPONGE:
1 cup of starter
1 cup of flour
1 cup of pre-boiled water - no hotter than 28dC
Method: - Last thing at night -
.Place all three ingredients into a mixing bowl and whisk till reasonably smooth - it doesn't have to be perfect.
.Cover and leave overnight
.In the morning it has a frothy top.

DOUGH:
3 cups of flour (White flour is best to start off with if just learning - I'll post info on what to add to flour, and why if you are wanting to create loaves using wholemeal, kibbled grains and gluten free flours like rye.
2 tspns Salt
1 Tb Oil

Method:
.Mix the salt into the flour thoroughly (salt interferes with the action of yeast so it is important it is well mixed with the flour/s)
.Add the oil to the sponge (don't bother mixing it in)
.Now add the flour to the sponge - 1 cup at a time, mixing each addition in well
.The resultant dough should be soft and a little bit sticky.
.Tip onto a bench that has been sprinkled with the smallest amount of semolina.
.Compact it together and invert a bowl over itand leave to rest while I wash up the mixing bowl and sundry dishes, dry and put away (I use a large s/s bowl to measure the flour in and use that for proofing as well. That is what I invert over the dough)
.Knead. Add more water if the dough is too dry. Add more flour if the dough is too sticky.

Resist the urge to keep adding flour till the dough no longer sticks to your hands. It needs to be sticky for some part of the kneading process or your bread will turn out dry and go 'stale' as it cools. This injunction is definitely why I see many questions in the bread thread about why bread goes stale, almost immediately and no one seems to know why - except me of course and as it is not my thread and no one wants to hear from me, I've never bothered to enlighten them.

Slightly sticky dough is also easier to knead.

.When dough is silky smooth and elastic I oil the bowl I use to invert over my dough during kneading rests, and using a series of folds and turning with cupped hands, form a ball with an unbroken upper skin and a seam on the bottom
.Place this ball, seam side down, in the oiled bowl, flatten (as best I can because by now the yeasts are going crazy and the ball is not wanting to be flattened) and put into a supermarket bag, tie the handles, and put aside to prove until doubled in size. Proofing takes anywhere from 4 to 6 hours depending on the temperature. The longer the better in my opinion if you want a very sour loaf.
.Tip it out onto the bench that has another fine layer of semolina, seam side up, and flatten gently.
Note: Do not be rough. Punching down is not the thing to do, no matter what Alison Holst may say. DO NOT PUNCH DOWN YOUR DOUGH.
.Do the foldy thing again and rest the dough for 30mins with the proofing bowl, once again, inverted over it to stop it drying out
.Size (cut to the sizes you want - i.e. rolls, baguettes, mini loaves, 2 loaves, plaits, etc) or leave whole if making one loaf, shape and put into or onto tin/basket/baking tray/etc, and prove till it has reached the desired size.
.Bake in preheated at 220dC for 30mins (single loaf) then take it out of the tin and bake for a further 30mins @ 200dC
.Put a metal bowl or tin in the oven when it is heating. Before you put your loaf in, throw a few ice cubes into the hot tin. This gives you steam. Bread needs steam when it first goes into the oven to promote 'oven bloom' which is the last final burst of rising done by the loaf before the yeasts are all killed off by the heat.
.Loaf should sound hollow when tapped on the bottom. This gives me a lovely crispy crust loaf of bread. I like crispy crunchy crusts.

Now can I ask you for something!

Do you make regular bread using store bought yeast! If so can you please post your recipe. I have tried the one from the Bread Thread and it has a lot of flaws, or else I am just crap at instant breads. It certainly is not as easy to create a nice, elastic dough as the sour dough recipe. I don't know if it is me or the recipe, but I would like a recipe that someone else uses that they can make with ease.

Also if you would like a further novel from me explaining how to knead dough I'll be happy to post the instructions.

From the bread thread I got a really good idea for using kibbled grains, bran and grain germs. I can post that too if you like.

Here's the basic recipe that I used to use for everydaybread.And I'll also give a recipe for potato bread, which is lovely.

Plain HouseholdBread

• 1kg strong flour
• 625m tepid water
• 30g fresh yeast or 20g dried yeast
• 1tsp sugar
• 1 level tablespoon fine sea salt

semolina for dusting.
Makes 2 loaves.
Mix water, yeast and sugar, leave 10 min to start working.Mix flour, salt, add liquid and mix to a soft dough, add more water if neccessary.Knead by hand or with a dough hook in a food mixer until very elastic - about 10 minutes.Return to bowl, cover and leave to rise at room temperature for 3 - 4 hours or until doubled in bulk OR in the fridge overnight.Punch down, cut in two and shape each into a loaf by folding edges into centre over and over until it forms a bouncy evenly shaped loaf.Dust with semolina and either place in loaf tins or on an oven tray.Leave to rise about 45 min at room temperature, bake at 200C for about 45 minutes or until dark golden brown.Cool COMPLETELY before cutting.

White Bread with Potato

500g potatoes, steamed and mashed or riced,
1 kg strong white flour,
1 tab dried yeast (not instant),
300 ml warm milk,
300 ml warm water,
2 tsp salt.

Dissolve yeast in liquids and leave to stand while you rub the potato into the flour and salt . Add the yeast liquid, mix to a soft dough and knead for about 10 min until elastic and bouncy.

Put into a large bowl, cover and either leave to rise about 2 hours until doubled in bulk or refrigerate until the next day (it will rise slowly in the fridge).

When you are ready, set oven to 220C, punch down dough and shape in two loaves or 36 rolls, cover and leave to rise about 30 min (or longer if dough was refrigerated). Bake loaves about 45 min, rolls about 20 min until golden brown. Cool completely on rack before cutting. You can use 500g cooked white rice instead of potato.

Thank you so much for those recipes david. They are now saved for when things settle down here.

I'm intrigued that it takes 3-4 hours for the first proof. I thought commercial yeast worked much faster than that.

I'm dying to try making the potato bread. If it comes out OK I am wondering if I could substitute pumpkin for the potatoes. It would have to be dry roasted I think, rather than steamed.

You can speed up the proofing by using more yeast and keeping the dough warrm, but I prefer the flavour that comes from a long cool proofing.

I used to make a pumpkin foccacia.From memory I used steamed pumpkin and it worked well.The drawback to it was that it always looked more like a sweet cake than bread, and if I was catering the guests tended not to know what to do with it, especially if I'd put olives in it.

I'd probably go for the really obvious addition of pumpkin seeds rather than olives. This would leave it open for either a sweet topping (jam, marmalade, honey, etc) or a savoury topping (cold meat, eggs, salad, etc)