Thanks for all your advice uli and pickles. Please feel free to add as we go along. As a sourdough aficionado who has a small grasp on the understanding of wild yeasts I would probably see very little sense in sterilising my apple juice and then adding a commercial yeast to it when, like grapes, it comes with its own yeast, specifically evolved for that particular fruit. I was hoping to produce a vinegar still filled with the natural enzymes and vitamins of the original fruit so that it will be health giving and life affirming. Am I being unreasonable here? Will I just produce poison instead? I'll have to consider this very carefully.
buzzy110,
Oct 18, 11:03pm
Thanks for the heads up about Binn Inn. I am going to make a list and call into a shop just as soon as I get my daughter's wedding out of the way (3 weeks and counting down) and her elder sister back on the plane to England. I'm hoping her father can go part of the way with her and really give me some breathing space to think. In the interim I'll keep reading. I wish I could go visit uli's vinegar making in action. Pickles, thank you for all the photos. Each photo fills in a little more detail.
pickles7,
Oct 19, 6:34am
buzzy... . It is up to you if you go with the natural yeasts, it is not something I would do myself, I will be using my vinegar to preserve food, and need to know the vinegar has a acidity of at least 6%. Under that it would be unsafe. I do not want 23 liters of vinegar fit for the making of dressings only. Wine can also be made with natural yeasts, it is something that has been tried commercially by the organic vine yards, more the reason why I choose to sterilise the "must", before adding the yeast. The organic wines do not win the medals. I savour every bottle I make. I found something on here about putting apple skins etc. in a bucket and making cider vinegar. By all means try it. Once again it is up to the person making it. I would not preserve food using that though. Probably wouldn't use it in a dressing either. Sourdough cultures can be a bit hit and miss also, a known culture is needed for reliable results with bread, or you you can end up with a loaf of questionable quality. Another thread coming up I reacon.
uli,
Oct 19, 8:23pm
Pickles - thanks for your concern.
However we are trying to live a natural healthy life and in this we are not going to buy chemicals to throw into our food to "sterilize" the life force out of it.
We also preserve "pickles" by fermenting foods, so they are still raw when preserved, so the need for vinegar of a certain strength is irrelevent. Besides that - I have found that my homemade traditional cider vinegar is much stronger than the commercial cider vinegar that is set at 5%.
There is a sourdough thread going since a long time. You are welcome to start your own of course :)
pickles7,
Oct 19, 11:57pm
ulibuzzy . are you one, of the same? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
mwood,
Oct 20, 2:53am
Dumb and Dumber perhaps ?
davidt4,
Oct 20, 3:08am
voted #57 off
uli,
Oct 20, 3:52am
Last time i looked I was just myself - however I don't think I am dumb. Not quite sure what mwood refers to.
pickles7,
Oct 20, 4:09am
Do you make wine ? mwood. It is not hard, It is , to make a good wine though. We drink ours as soon as we can, we do not put ours away for years anymore. The last two lots I have bottled we were able to drink those within 1 month. Now six months on and I cannot say it has improved any. Maybe it hasn't got room for improvement. lol.
buzzy110,
Oct 20, 4:34am
No pickles. uli is uli and buzzy is buzzy and never the twain shall meet (except in here of course). It may interest you to know that I started the sourdough thread and except for the first two loaves my bread has always come our perfectly, barring my lack of breadmaking experience, that is. I have also started preserving my foods by natural, lacto fermentation as opposed to cooking with sugar and vinegar and I can honestly say that the quality, taste and general effect is superior to all the little bottles of pickles, relishes and chutneys that I still have left over from last year which I made because I was only experimenting with lacto fermentation preserves last year. This year that is all I am going to do unlessthe food just is not suitable. Lucky for me I still have a half G of DYC vinegar leftover.
buzzy110,
Oct 20, 4:38am
However, pickles, I understand your desire to get everything right and why you are undertaking the methodology that you are. It would be a shame if all your cooking went bad because of a dodgy batch of vinegar. Perhaps you could do a little, experimental batch of cider vinegar using natural yeasts and compare how it turns out. It probably wouldn't involve you in too much extra work and it would be a great experiment.
pickles7,
Oct 20, 5:26am
true buzzy, you are right. You are lucky to have some good vinegar. Cucumber and vinegar, just is not the same, as it used to be. Do you preserve using sea salt?
mwood,
Oct 20, 9:09pm
I make beer, and spirits and as I live in Marlborough I no longer feel the urge to make wine. I have not made vinegar yet as I am still thinking about the possible affect it might have on my fermenting. I have never had a bad ferment turn to vinegar so would need to get a mother starter.
buzzy110,
Oct 20, 9:28pm
Yes pickles. I only use sea salt in all my sauerkraut, lacto-fermented vegetable and sour dough bread making. I can't remember what or where I read it, but I think there is something is iodised table salt that affects fermented foods in a negative way.
buzzy110,
Oct 20, 9:29pm
My husband is obssessed with only using cider vinegar in dressings and other vinegar things that aren't cooked so he always brings me home bottles and bottles of the stuff (Braggs) on his overseas travels where it is cheaper. However, I'd still like to try making my own, even if I only get to the cider stage. lol
pickles7,
Oct 21, 5:15am
mwood/... ... Your "vinegar mother" will grow just by using raw cider vinegar... ... The way I got my vinegar brewing is not as bad as letting the vinegar flies infect it. I don't have 1 fly inside. You are right to think vinegar may be detrimental to your beer brewing. Vinegar needs to be made well away from wine, It will be the same with your beer. Everything My vinegar touches will not be used for wine or beer making. Good for you never to have made vinegar while brewing your beer, that will be your vigilance to cleanliness. That is how I feel, why put time, money into something you did not set out to make. I am very pleased with my vinegar making. I understand with wine making where you live, we are a bit the same here in Hawkes Bay, lol. But, it has been a hobby of mine for years now, Hard to shake.
pickles7,
Oct 21, 5:20am
buzzy... . . I have been swigging on my bottle of cider vinegar a while now, I am sure I feel better for it... . Wouldn't preserved food using just salt be detrimental to your health. All that salt? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? . You can buy bulk raw cider vinegar, just have not found draught vinegar for years now.
buzzy110,
Oct 21, 11:28am
No pickles. It is not detrimental to your health. Salt, in moderate quantities is actually not bad for us. Salt becomes a problem when processed foods are the mainstay of your diet. In them is huuuge amounts of sodium. I don't eat processed foods. Also lacto fermentation doesn't have anymore salt in it than your pickles, chutneys and spices and it is even preferable to make them without salt. Sauerkraut actually uses very little salt per quantity of vegetable matter and as it is not eaten in huge amounts there is not a lot of salt being eaten per serving - no more say, than in a few slices of commercially made bread.
buzzy110,
Oct 21, 11:31am
Actually pickles chutneys, relishes and pickles, which you say you do an awful lot of, does contain high amounts of sugar which, if you read the Food Lies thread, you would realise is bad for you. I don't even need to ask the question. Simply because I do make those things, I know how much sugar goes into them. Even cutting down the sugar, there is still too much. As a consequence we eat very little of my preserves. They get given out to other people, on the proviso they give me a clean, (without labels) lidded jar in return.
buzzy110,
Oct 21, 11:37am
And one other thought for the night. The only fuel usage that goes into making lacto fermented vegetables is the energy it takes for me to heat up a big pot of water so I can boil sterilise my jars. I learnt from my mother that complete and utter sterility is the only way to preserve food. My husband thinks I go over board as everything, including the kitchen benches are doused in hot water and I boil the kitchen cloths as well. Otherwise the process involves no cooking whatsoever. Cool. That means all the enzymes are still available and the food is still virtually raw (but doesn't taste it in some cases) when it comes time to eat them. Currently finishing the last of my beetroot and for a while I didn't realise it wasn't a chutney. Doh.
pickles7,
Oct 21, 8:16pm
buzzy... . I have a book on all that , I got to the bit saying to just skim off the scummy mould, the veges ... . . should... . be ok. If they smell, then throw them out. mmmmm just didn't interest me... . . I can see why you would need to boil everything. I don't go to that much trouble, I use a "sulphate" solution to sterilise, my wine makingthings and they are wrapped up in plastic, waiting for a "score" of fruit, from where my son works... . but as for pickles and stuff I rely on general cleanliness, ... . My jars are put through the dish washer, into the oven to dry inside... . May have another look at that book, and try and get past the scary bit... . . lol. I am looking into the use of "ascorbic acid", as a preservitive.
buzzy110,
Oct 22, 4:16am
Oh. I have a proper crock for making sauerkraut and no scum develops at all. When you make fermented vegetables in jars scum doesn't develop either. When I first started making sauerkraut I was not keen to buy a crock till I had tried it. I made my first batch in a bucket, and with careful management I was able to eat nearly all of it and the scum didn't develop till I was almost at the bottom. The scum (or bloom) as it is politely called, isn't toxic but it does taint the food if you get it in it. I just sterilise because that is what I do because my mother always did it that way when she did preserves. We had orchards of fruit and she was always preserving and making things and I never saw her do it without killing every germ in the kitchen. Just her way I guess. I wouldn't boil plastic though. The steriliser is sufficient.
buzzy110,
Oct 22, 4:19am
I still have my eyes open for a large Sun Tea type jar with a tap at the bottom to make my cider in. However, I guess, I'll end up using a plastic brewing barrel from Binn Inn or buying one from TM as glass ones don't seem to be thick on the ground in this part of the world.
pickles7,
Oct 22, 8:28pm
buzzy... I am going to store the vinegar I don't use for sauce making, in wine bottles. I will finish them off the same as my wine, with labels, and collars on the necks of the bottles. May look up balsamic, thinking I would need to just add molasses? to taste. That would be something similar as I don't have another 50 years to mature the real thing, lol. I am going to use a weed mulcher to crush my apples, a bit cheaper than a waste disposal unit. The quantity would burn my juicer out.
pickles7,
Oct 22, 8:32pm
by the way there is nothing wrong with plastic, just remember once used for vinegar, it will never be safe for wine.
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