Wholegrain Bread Recipes - Help please!

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craig04, Aug 30, 1:50am
I'm getting into making my own bread and have tried a couple of recipes but have yet to find a really nice wholegrain bread recipe. Anyone got any good ones or some tips to improve my bread - it tends to not be very soft

buzzy110, Aug 30, 2:56am
Making ordinary white bread is a fairly straightforward operation but wholegrains/wholemeals using things like bran, germ and kibbled grains are slightly (with the emphasis on slightly) more complicated and several things need to be remembered.

1. The amount of hydration (water) in your recipe is important. With any bread the dough, when it is first mixed needs to actually be sticky enough to stick to your hands when your first start kneading, but not so sticky that after a period of time (I'll explain later) kneading, it doesn't become a soft, pliable, non-sticky dough.

2. When you knead the dough you keep going till the gluten forms a network of long, elastic chains within the dough which helps trap the gases from the yeast and thus making your loaf light and fluffy. To check cut off a bit, flatten it on some flour and then pick it up and stretch it out. You should be able to create an almost see-through flap that, when you press lightly from the back with your fingers whilst holding it up, will stretch, rather than break.

3. The best way of kneading is to use one hand only. Have a scraper in the other hand. (You need to have a clean hand in case the ph goes - lol). Push the dough away from you, slap it back, do a ¼ turn and repeat. Do this for 5mins only then make dough into a ball, scrape the sticky dough off hand with the scraper and invert a bowl over the dough and let it rest for 30secs - 1min). Do another 5min knead, etc. I do mine for 30mins by which time the dough is perfect - no longer sticky but soft and elastic. Resist the urge to add more and more flour to make the dough less sticky. A fine dusting on the bench between each 5min block should be sufficient.

4. Now the wholemeal question. Bran and other bits interfere with the dough's ability to form long elastic chains. It acts like glass, cutting the chains so the kneading technique I have just explained is more important than with plain white flour dough. To counter the effects of the bran, it is also important to add gluten to the dough. Select a recipe that uses gluten or add 1/3cup to every 5cups of flour. I use this rule of thumb because that is how much flour I use per loaf. 1 cup for the starter. 1 cup for the sponge. 3 cups for the dough.

There are other things to explain about the knock back but as this is turning into a novel I'll let your resource books explain more fully.

The importance of the hydration cannot be over emphasised. It makes it easier to knead the dough for starters but it also helps you to produce a light, fluffy loaf that resembles a bought one and ensures it stays fresh for days rather than go stale on the day it is baked.

I have often seen instructions in here to knead for 5-10mins but if you want to make a superior loaf do as I do and do it properly. But don't worry if you don't. You will be in good company. Wild Wheat loaves are small, leaden lumps too and go stale at high speed as well and their bread is considered very good.

craig04, Aug 31, 12:20am
Real great advice thanks guys. I have tried a recipe of my SIL's today and it has come up really quite well, I substituted some of the flour for gluten flour and think that gave me a softer bread which is still really nice today - I had some for lunch. It called for milk instead of water and I used a mix of kibbled grain and seeds such as pumpkin and sunflower and I washed the grain first to get all the dust off it - I don't know if that helps or not, I kneaded for 20 min with a break in the middle. I will definitely check out the bread thread - I hope to bake most of our weekly bread from now on

buzzy110, Aug 31, 9:43am
Good for you. I haven't bought bread since I learned how to make sour dough. All our bread is homemade. I had a small taste of bought bread recently and quietly spat it out. It tasted horrible.

pickles7, Aug 31, 10:59am
7 Seeded bread

3 cups of flour
1 cup of, seven seed grain mix [pak n save]
2 Tbsp milk powder
1&1/2 tsp salt
2 tsp sugar
2 Tbsp soft butter
1 tsp bread improver
3 tsp dried sure to rise yeast
350 mils of warm water.
May need 1 or 2 Tbsp of extra water if the bread maker is struggling at all.I put my Panasonic onto the whole grain = 5 hour setting.

buzzy110, Sep 2, 1:59am
That is wonderful craig04. I hope you allowed the 30sec-1min break every 5mins as this does give the yeast a chance to rest.

I guess you probably understand how to test whether your dough is ready to go into the oven but I'll refresh your memory just in case.

I only ever make sourdough using a starter and everything takes much longer, including the "spring back" test however roughly it goes thus:

Press the dough gently with your finger to make a small indentation. If it springs back rapidly, it is not fully proofed. If it springs back more slowly but still comes back then the dough is ready for cooking. If it doesn't spring back at all then it is overproofed and you will not get any 'oven bloom' (extra rising when the loaf goes into the oven) but the bread will still be edible anyway. I often see overproofed bread being sold in the bakery depts of supermarkets so don't worry if you slightly overshoot the optimum proofing time.

One other thing I do when I'm proving my dough is put the tin/tins inside a plastic shopping bag and tuck the open end underneath or tie the handles. This keeps the top from drying out and saves on gladwrap. Obviously you need to leave space inside the bag for your dough to rise. I test the dough through the plastic bag.

One more thing. When you heat your oven, put in a metal bowl or dish that can get nice and hot. Just before you put your dough in, throw a few ice cubes into the hot metal dish. Bread always cooks better if the oven is slightly steamy to start with. Commercial ovens have the facility to deliver a shot of steam at the beginning of the baking process.

2young1, Sep 2, 2:05am
nothing beats homemade bread. my son who only eats junk will wolf my wheatmeal loafas fast as lightning.

sqiff, Sep 2, 7:02am
I would just like to thank you Buzzy for you great directions for kneading of the sourdough. I have been making my own now for a couple of years but never had much luck doing by hand and used to pop it into the breadmaker on the dough cycle to get good results but after following your instructions to the T I have just made a beautiful and best ever loaf. I will now be doing the loaf by hand in future. Thank you so much.

lx4000, Sep 2, 9:38am
add melted butter and some oil. This helps it keep soft. After it comes out of the oven, wrap in a damp cloth.
I make all my bread by hand and never use a recipe. I just throw it all in! Seeds like sunflower and pumpkin, oat bran, kibbled wheat, bran, what ever and go from there. Try different things and you will find the more you make, the more you try. A fav here is bread with bread with cheese herbs and garlic in the middle.

craig04, Sep 3, 9:11pm
Beautiful, thanks guys! My loaves turned out awesome and we've been wolfing them down. I made a batch of white on Friday as well, so we're set for bread for the rest of the week and not a bought loaf in sight - yay! Thankyou buzzy for your great tips - I've learnt more about bread-making on this MB in one week than I have in 38yrs!

buzzy110, Sep 4, 2:04am
Lol. I only learned how to make bread less than 2 years ago when I became interested in the health benefits of sour dough. However, not being the sort of person who is keen to waste time and money experimenting I spent a lot of time researching "my project" so that I could get it right from the start. My first few sour dough loaves were fairly dire because I hadn't found the right reference book. I read a number of books and recipes from all the experts, Jamie Oliver included, but none of them were even came close to providing me with the correct information. I'm the sort of person who looks for the answers to 'Why' and not just 'How.

I have a huge amount of knowledge on bread making tucked up in my head now and the information I have shared with you is just part of a very large story.

Good luck all of you.

245sam, Oct 4, 11:10pm
bumped for those who bake bread:-))

peterbk, Oct 10, 3:14am
I too have discovered the joy of making sour dough bread and love that the sour dough has health benefits too. Using the slow rise (no knead) method causes the bread to be lower in GI, somehow the starch is changed over the slow rise that makes it more digestible and a lower GI which is great for people who want to maintain a more level blood sugar. No nasty peaks and lows in blood glucose.
I was given some sour dough starter from the Hamilton Volaire Bakery Kaihikatea Rd and have been making sour dough bread since June this year. I converted my slow-rise vogels bread recipe to sour dough and love the bread. I just feed the starter, leave it at room temperature for a few hours before i want to make up the bread and place the leftover starter in the fridge til i want to make some more bread, anywhere from 1-10 days.
It is a wholegrain loaf with bran and kibbled grains in it. Because it is a no knead recipe you dont get the problem of the grains cutting the gluten strands as you do with a kneaded bread.
The bread needs to rise overnight for 12 - 15 hours depending on the weather temperature and the next day shaped into a round loaf and let to rise second rise of 2-3 hours. I cook it in a covered cast iron dutch oven, can also cook it in a pyrex casserole dish.
I love the smell of sour dough bread, a sweet honey smell, but no honey in the recipe and also the chewy crust.

craig04, Oct 10, 3:23am
I don't suppose you'd be willing to share your vogels-type bread recipe peterbk! I have my first sourdough starter bubbling away as I type - it's on day 5 so will be ready to use soon.

elliehen, Oct 10, 3:56am
craig04, I saved peterbk's recipe from a previous post.I'll put it here in case he doesn't return.If he does, he might have tweaked it since I saved it and add to the conversation.

peterbk, Oct 10, 4:17am
Good to find other sour dough bread enthusiasts. Here is my favourite wholegrain sour dough bread, quite like vogels, just better.

Jacquelines Sour Dough Bread
The day before you want to bake the bread.
Morning:
½ cup sour dough starter (taken out of fridge in morning, feed if needed)
½ cup kibbled wheat and ¼ cup kibbled rye soaked in ¾ cup boiling water until cold.

Later in day:
2 ¼cups cold water
5 cups all-purpose or bread flour, more for dusting
2 Tbsp gluten (optional)
½ cup bran
2 ½teaspoons salt

1. Stir together the live bubbly starter and water in a large bowl.
Add soaked kibbled grains, stir.
Add dry ingredients and mix well until a shaggy wet dough forms. Leave covered with glad wrap on bench for 12 hours or longer (in cold weather may need 18 hours). The dough needs to have bubbles forming on the top when ready.

2. The next morning if dough not ready,weather is cool and I want to speed up the process I heat the oven to 50 deg C, turn oven off and place the bowl of dough into the warm oven to continue rising.
When the dough is ready ( all bubbly on top) lightly flour a work surface and tip the dough out on to it. Sprinkle it with a little more flour and fold it over on itself once or twice. Cover and let rest about 15 minutes.

3. Using just enough flour to keep dough from sticking to work surface or to your fingers, gently and quickly shape dough into a ball. No kneading necessary. Dust dough with more flour and place the dough seam side down into an oiled 3 L bowl. Cover and let rise for about 2 hours (may need 4 hours). (When dough is ready, it will be more than double in size and will not readily spring back when poked with a finger.)

4. Half an hour before dough is ready, heat oven to 230 deg C and place a 4 ½ Litre(22 cm diameter) cast iron dutch oven with lid in to heat for that half hour. Can also place a cast iron frypan or plate on the rack below the dutch oven. (It keeps the oven hot and prevents bottom of loaf from over browning)
A ceramic or pyrex casserole container may be used instead of cast iron.

5. When dough is ready and no longer springs back, use a silicone spatula to gently ease dough out of bowl and into the hot dutch oven container. Take care not to break any dough strands. Dough will end up seam side up. Put lid on container and place in oven.
6. Bake at 220 deg for 35 minutes then remove lid and bake a further 10 -15 minutes to brown top. Remove from oven, tip bread onto a rack. Should sound hollow when tapped, if not return to oven to cook for further 5 minutes.
Cover with a tea towel and leave to cool. Do not slice until cool. The bread stays fresh much longer if left until cold before slicing so that moisture does not escape.
Enjoy, Jacqueline

elliehen, Oct 10, 4:23am
I confess to being a lazy sourdough aficionado.My local Dutch baker makes a delicious Rye Sourdough to order and occasionally an American-style one.

peterbk, Oct 10, 4:24am
Hello elliehen
Have you been making the slow rise vogels bread!How have you found it, made any changes!
Jacqueline

elliehen, Oct 10, 4:26am
As I confessed above.I had/have good intentions, so saved it, but tend to rely on my friendly neighbourhood baker.

craig04, Oct 10, 4:58am
Yay! Thanks guys! I can't wait to try it out

skippie1, Oct 10, 9:01am
Any suggestions how to bake the bread if you have no dutch oven. I do have bread baking tins, can I use those. Thank you.

peterbk, Oct 10, 7:51pm
You can bake the bread in a tin, but a covered container gives it a really nice crust due to the steam generated. My daughter bakes it in a ceramic casserole dish, preheats it with no problems.
Jacqueline

agave1, Oct 10, 9:15pm
Hi Buzzy,What do you mean by this sentence please!can I just go out and buy gluten by itself, or does this mean gluten flour!Thanks

"To counter the effects of the bran, it is also important to add gluten to the dough. Select a recipe that uses gluten or add 1/3cup to every 5cups of flour. "

buzzy110, Oct 11, 3:53am
You can buy gluten flour from the supermarket. I usually buy the Healtheries gluten flour. It comes in a green ziplock plastic bag and is found with all the other Healtheries flour and bread making products in the flour section of the supermarket. Healtheries has inconveniently placed all of their different products in the same coloured bags with the same logos and type face printing so be careful to read the bag before you go grabbing it or you may end up with a gluten free breadmaking mix or similar.

peterbk, Oct 11, 4:17am
Good to find other sour dough bread enthusiasts. Here is my favourite wholegrain sour dough bread, quite like vogels, just better.

Jacquelines Sour Dough Bread
The day before you want to bake the bread.
Morning:
½ cup sour dough starter (taken out of fridge in morning, feed if needed)
½ cup kibbled wheat and ¼ cup kibbled rye soaked in ¾ cup boiling water until cold.

Later in day:
2 ¼cups cold water
5 cups high grade bread flour, more for dusting
(can replace one cupone of the white flour with one cup of rye flour)
2 Tbsp gluten (optional)
½ cup bran
2 ½teaspoons salt

1. Stir together the live bubbly starter and water in a large bowl.
Add soaked kibbled grains, stir.
Add dry ingredients and mix well until a shaggy wet dough forms. Leave covered with glad wrap on bench for 12 hours or longer (in cold weather may need 18 hours). The dough needs to have bubbles forming on the top when ready.

2. The next morning if dough not ready,weather is cool and I want to speed up the process I heat the oven to 50 deg C, turn oven off and place the bowl of dough into the warm oven to continue rising.
When the dough is ready ( all bubbly on top) lightly flour a work surface and tip the dough out on to it. Sprinkle it with a little more flour and fold it over on itself once or twice. Cover and let rest about 15 minutes.

3. Using just enough flour to keep dough from sticking to work surface or to your fingers, gently and quickly shape dough into a ball. No kneading necessary. Dust dough with more flour and place the dough seam side down into an oiled 3 L bowl. Cover and let rise for about 2 hours (may need 4 hours). (When dough is ready, it will be more than double in size and will not readily spring back when poked with a finger.)

4. Half an hour before dough is ready, heat oven to 230 deg C and place a 4 ½ Litre(22 cm diameter) cast iron dutch oven with lid in to heat for that half hour. Can also place a cast iron frypan or plate on the rack below the dutch oven. (It keeps the oven hot and prevents bottom of loaf from over browning)
A ceramic or pyrex casserole container may be used instead of cast iron.

5. When dough is ready and no longer springs back, use a silicone spatula to gently ease dough out of bowl and into the hot dutch oven container. Take care not to break any dough strands. Dough will end up seam side up. Put lid on container and place in oven.
6. Bake at 220 deg for 35 minutes then remove lid and bake a further 10 -15 minutes to brown top. Remove from oven, tip bread onto a rack. Should sound hollow when tapped, if not return to oven to cook for further 5 minutes.
Cover with a tea towel and leave to cool. Do not slice until cool. The bread stays fresh much longer if left until cold before slicing so that moisture does not escape.
Enjoy, Jacqueline